Big Salaries Linked to Big-Name Law Schools; Small Pay Is Larger Reality

Lawyer Pay

Big Salaries Linked to Big-Name Law Schools; Small Pay Is Larger Reality

Posted Jan 8, 2008, 08:39 am CST
By Debra Cassens Weiss

Graduates of 58 law schools make average starting salaries of $60,000 or less, a fact ignored by many of the stories touting $160,000 starting salaries at big law firms.

Instead, the reality is that there are two classes of law grads, the National Jurist reports: those who earn the big bucks and those who don’t. And the low-paying jobs are much more prevalent.

While the nation’s largest firms increased associate salaries 86 percent over the last 10 years, firms with two to 25 lawyers increased salaries by only 33 percent, according to a chart published in the article.

Another chart shows the average starting salary breakdown by law schools, with grads of 58 schools making $60,000 or less and the grads of only 17 law schools making more than $100,000.

The top four law schools, where students earned average starting salaries of $135,000, were Chicago, Duke, Michigan and Northwestern. At the next group of law schools, students earned average starting salaries of $125,000. They include the University of California at Berkeley, New York University, Pennsylvania, the University of Southern California and Virginia.

At the bottom of the list is South Dakota, whose grads earned an average starting salary of $38,251.

A hat tip to the TaxProf blog, which posted the story and listed the top 25 and lowest 25 law schools.

Story updated at 10:55 AM on 01/11/2008 to remove a reference to salaries at Chicago-Kent. The law school says reports that its average first-year pay is $125,000 are incorrect. The school's figures for 2006 show the average starting salary is about $78,000 for all jobs and about $93,000 for new grads in private practice.

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Posted by Natalie - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 14 hours, 45 minutes ago

Finally an article about starting salaries that shows that not all lawyers make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. This is the reality for most of us who toil for our clients as much as the lawyers in the big firms, but without the corporate massages, free dry cleaning, and happiness committees. Then we struggle to make those astronomical student loan payments each month. I should have gone to nursing school or got my MBA instead.
Posted by Randall - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 13 hours, 50 minutes ago

$60,000? Those of working in the public sector are lucky to hit that after many years of service, and most start below the lowest average listed here. I didn’t go to law school to get rich, but it would be nice to actually be to pay the bills.
Posted by Dave - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 13 hours, 10 minutes ago

Well finally the truth comes out. Now maybe the other rags that write about salaries and wage studies will take note.

I agree with Nataile. First year nurses working the same amount of hours an associate does earns better than 70K with the OT. Further, they get signing bonuses and the like.

Boy did I make a stupid decision to become a “professional” where I’m holding the hands of clients earning twice as much as I am for silly issues.

Seven years of schooling and its difficult to survive. Randall says it well, it would be nice to be able to pay the bills…
Posted by mike hunt - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 13 hours, 3 minutes ago

Lets not start making this an encounter session. We’re all lawyers making ends meet, working hard, some harder than others, and lets keep our chins up—it could be a lot worse. We have time to read and comment on this tripe; many other lawyers don’t have the wherewithall to join the ABA, let alone the time to troll the web to read and comment. My boss knows I’m a webhound, but he’s happy enough with my work to pay me $70K. And that’s fine by me and my lifestyle. So quit griping and be glad you have work and a salary, even if it isn’t the salary of David Boies. I recognize that he’s smarter than me, and he also works a lot harder! I prefer my lifestyle. Thank you.
Posted by Ronnie - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 12 hours, 36 minutes ago

Thank you Mike Hunt! I completely agree with you; I went to one of the big name schools and my starting salary is also 70k, around 30% less than my school’s average. But I love my job, and I feel blessed to be able to go to work every day and do something I feel good about. And even with my loan debt, I’m still happy with my decision (and make no mistake, I have over $200k in loan debt—just imagine what my monthly payment is). I’d take what I do over something else any day of the week.
Posted by Nicole - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 12 hours, 35 minutes ago

Mike, it’s very nice that you are a self-professed “webhound” and that you still make $70K a year. Congratulations. However, your comment about “quit griping and be glad that you have work and a salary” shows that you clearly don’t understand the struggles of people who make far less than you.

I have $88K in student loans and I consider myself lucky because many people have a lot more. However, I am a second-year associate with a 70 (yes, 70) case caseload and I am making far less money than you. I struggle each month to make my student loan payments. I am responsible with my money and have no credit card debt, but I live in a one-bedroom apartment in Philadelphia and I don’t splurge because I can’t. My firm doesn’t pay for my CLEs or bar memberships. I can’t afford my bar memberships (free the first year) so they have all lapsed. I have to borrow money from my parents for my CLE courses!

So excuse the rest of us if we feel a little bitter about working our butts off and spending thousands to educate ourselves and finding out that we can only find jobs that pay us so little that we can barely afford to pay our bills.
Posted by Daniel - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 12 hours, 31 minutes ago

This is not news. If you didn’t know about the salaries that most lawyers earn then you didn’t do the research you should have done before you went to law school. By the time you go to law school you are a college educated adult. You should be able to do a little homework and find out how much lawyers earn by then.
Posted by John - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 12 hours, 29 minutes ago

When I graduated from Michigan Law School in 1972 I owed only about $6,500, thanks mainly to the GI Bill, clerking for profs and Michigan residency. I didn’t need a high-paying job, and I didn’t look for one. Nor did I need prestige. I still don’t need it, and I’m still not rich, but I’m happy.

As far as I’m concerned, the best reason for going to law school is to learn about this fascination process we call “law.” The fact that it supplies you with skills that can help make a living is a bonus. I enjoyed law school immensely. It was the perfect way to cap a liberal education.

Unfortunately, hardly anyone can enjoy the benefits of a legal education nowadays without going deeply into debt. Most graduates need to make lots of money just to dig their way out of the hole, even if they have the good sense not to worry about wealth or prestige. It’s sad. I tell my kids law school can be a great educational experience, and law can be a satisfying way to make a living, but I don’t recommend it if the cost is debt slavery.
Posted by TomtheWaiter - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 12 hours, 26 minutes ago

I’m tired of hearing you guys complain. I carry tea and serve coffee. That’s real work!!
Posted by Brian Tome - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 12 hours, 16 minutes ago

I too am a little depressed upon considering my job prospects (I graduate in May). However, keep in mind that a JD will open doors other than those on the hinges of a courtroom. Nicole, you are a valuable professional with a high degree of education. If your employer doesn’t pay you what you deserve, start looking for a new employer. I don’t mean, quit and then look for a job, but look now and when you find someone who will pay you what you deserve, run don’t walk in that direction. As a law clerk, I have seen many young attorneys in my court’s jurisdiction, being underpaid and overworked so their partner can pay for his new sports car and his beach house in the keys. I appreciate the hard work and time invested that got a partner where they are, and hope to reap some of those benefits one day, but most of them will take advantage of you for as long as you let them, so make it hard for them to do. And above all, never doubt your own value. You can make all the difference to someone who needs a good attorney. You deserve to be fairly compensated for that.
Good luck!
Posted by Bill - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 12 hours, 15 minutes ago

Yes finally an article in the direction of reality for attorney salaries. Constant coverage by the press of the astronomical salaries, its like the media coverage of candidates and political issues, leaving some jaded or simply bitter. We all chose our own career paths, and we all have options. I started 9 years ago at a larger big city law firm, nice to have 100k, but within 2 years left for smaller firm in more rural area at about 40% pay-cut. No regrets for that, but paying bills is hard. Then couple years ago had opportunity to work in-house, salary is now finally almost back to where I started out of law school 9 years ago - life is an interesting journey, make the most of it.
Posted by WillietheLawyer - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 12 hours, 11 minutes ago

And where. TomthWaiter, did you spend the seven years and hundreds of thousands these other guys spent getting their law licenses?
Posted by RJC - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 12 hours, 9 minutes ago

The rankings are both incorrect (read the comments at the TaxProf Blog site for the details), and misleading (they don’t adjust for lower starting salaries at schools like Yale and Stanford, where a disproportionate number of graduates take clerkships immediately out of law school but then get the money back when they go into firms). The story also fails to examine the premise on which it is based - that Biglaw pays all of that money for a reason: the work is mind-numbingly insulting, and socially useless.
Posted by Brian - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 12 hours, 6 minutes ago

Most commenters are expressing disappointment that their law degree is not a substitute for independent wealth, personal nirvana or, at least, an annuity. It’s not any of those, and never was for anyone. From my perspective, 30 years out of a nationally recognized law school, I make these observations, which I realized far later in my career than I should have:

Professionals are not employees, no matter what the paper says. You can be functionally and politically an employee even if you find the Grail of partnership, and you can stand tall as an associate. If you want to punch a clock, have weekends off and own a prefab retirement plan, get a job. Otherwise, recognize the potential and opportunity that you have gained by your work in law school and start a career, whether it be within a firm or on your own. Your own clients (not those dogs and cats put on your desk by your BigLaw partner) are your wealth and your security, not the partner and not the partner’s clients, who will never remember your name.

I’m sympathetic to the debt load my students carry (I’m an adjunct professor), but I am also impressed by how much initiative they show in their post-school professional lives. If they can do it, so can you. Play the long game, keep your eye on the ball and stand straight. And shine your shoes.
Posted by OldShark - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 12 hours ago

Why the constant complaints? This is a self employed profession. Around half of attorneys work for themselves.

Perhaps, if you view yourself as under paid, you should pilot your own boat. Alternatively, this is, after all, a mean to an end not a calling that should rise to religious fervor. Start another career. Open a business.

The turnover rate is around 50% in the first five years post graduation with the average time in a new job around two years – roughly that of an NFL player.

The modern trend is multiple careers over a lifetime. Buck up. Test other waters than that of a lifetime wage slave.
Posted by WillietheLawyer - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 11 hours, 59 minutes ago

The comment about researching income prospects in advance are well taken. If you didn’t get in at Hahvahd, you better be prepared to scratch when you get out. When I came out it was possible to start from nothing and build a respectable income after some years —many years in my own case—but I honestly don’t see how you can feed yourself, much less a family, on your own when you have to start out owing a non-dischargeable quarter million bux.
Posted by MIllietheSecretary - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 11 hours, 54 minutes ago

WillietheLawyer is not actually illiterate; he’s just a poor typist.
Posted by H.V.Baxendale - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 11 hours, 48 minutes ago

The ABA Journal and associated publications is one of the worst offenders of perpetuating the false view about lawyers: that they ALL start at $160K, that they ALL make a million a year, that they ALL bill 2400 and work 3000. Thanks to these articles and headlines, the public and the naive law students and law school applicants believe these things.
The saying about lawyers back in the day is that they “live well and die poor.“ That is, income was high enough to support a comfortable life style, but they weren’t amassing great wealth. Today the Biglaw partners are like the executives we represent, but the business model has flaws.
Nothing the Journal says is false, but it sure has created a false view of reality.
Posted by Charlie - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 11 hours, 34 minutes ago

The author of the article made a significant oversight in failing to mention that every school, whether at the top or bottom of the rankings, produces graduates with a wide range of incomes. It’s not that you make $X per year if you went to one school and $Y per year if you went to another school. Most law schools graduate people that go to work in big law firms and get high starting salaries. But even in the most “prestigious” law schools, the competition for those positions is fierce, and a large percentage of the class winds up with a more pedestrian income. And yes, the student loan debt is staggering, and most people have no sympathy for us because they figure we’ll be raking it in. I went to law school at the University of California and graduated in 2005, but I now live and work in New Jersey making just over $40,000 per year. None of the new lawyers I know make much more than that.
Posted by Daniel - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 11 hours, 31 minutes ago

It really wasn’t that difficult to simply call a few dozen lawyers and schedule some short interviews before applying to law school. It’s possible to educate yourself and make some good guesses about what kind of life you are going to live after law school. There’s no real trick to making good decisions about spending $100K.
Posted by interested - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 11 hours, 28 minutes ago

The article should point out that one of the reasons the top tier schools that are mentioned have such a high average is that most people get a job in the general geographical area surrounding their law school, and those schools happen to be near the highest paying markets. The article makes SD look like a terrible school, but doesn’t mention that the best law firms in the state probably pay $80k. As to those that complain about a $200k+ debt, you probably either took a risk that paying for a private law school that wasn’t ranked very well (or in a lower paying legal market) would work out, or you went to one of the big dog schools and didn’t do so well. There are plenty of good state law schools with tuition of <$15k per year.
Posted by Charlie - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 11 hours, 21 minutes ago

Interested: is the tuition at those state schools <$15k per year for non-residents? If not, then I guess folks are stuck with whatever their own state charges. I went to a state school that nearly tripled tuition for law students between the time I started and the time I graduated. There’s actually a pending lawsuit over it. Furthermore, have you considered the fact that a great many law students are unmarried with no family support or savings, can’t work to support themselves during school, and therefore have to borrow their living expenses as well?
Posted by Dave - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 11 hours, 4 minutes ago

I assume the numbers are what the school reports to the National Jurist right? Any chance the schools fudge which numbers get reported in the hopes of making them look more prestigious than they really are? Actually I see my (mid/lower tier) law school pretty high up on that pay scale with a number I’d be my life is a lie.

I’m guessing that when asked for this information some schools whittle down their stack of reported jobs (taking out the public interest, government and lower paying ones).

Plus let’s say that not all students go into their career center and fill out one of those “I took X job at Y salary” forms. (last I saw from my school it was 16 or 18% who even fill them out) -the people who report that are more likely to be the ones with higher paying jobs, or jobs at all. The rest with the lower paying jobs just don’t get counted and the school can suddenly claim $81,000 avg per year.

Fuzzy math.
Posted by rockhopper - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 11 hours, 1 minute ago

Charlie. The tuition at many state law schools in the midwest is very reasonable for non-residents. If not <$15k, often still <$20k. Several offer residency after the first year. I actually think that it’s a good idea to save up for law school. Buying on credit is not a better idea now than it was before.
Posted by RangerAJ - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 11 hours ago

Real lawyers graduated from engineering schools, with BS in Nuclear Engineering and an MS in Computer Science and now practice patent law. You liberal artists get what you earned, and compared to what a patent attorney makes, the shoe fits.
Posted by jonathan Edwards - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 10 hours, 59 minutes ago

graduating as I am from South Dakota this spring, I knew long ago what some are just finding out. And note that SD is at the bottom of the pay scale. However, I never intended to work for someone else, the law school loans are a 2nd mortgage and nothing more (I pay out of state tuition), and I haven’t made $38K since my last year in the Air Force, and that was many years ago. I will hang up my own shingle, and expect to do fine. Not great, just fine. Will I every be out of debt? probably not. So what? If I can pay my bill, enjoy time with my family, go hunting and fishing with my pals, what more do I need?
Posted by Aging Night Schooler - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 10 hours, 57 minutes ago

As a thirty-something, I worked a full-time day job and went to night law school for four long years. I don’t recommend this path, but over the following 25 years it gradually dawned on me that—despite the sacrifices demanded by any professional school and the tribulations of putting the interests of others ahead of one’s own—I am very, very lucky. All of us participate in one way or another in one of civilization’s most honored and significant callings. Jokes aside (mostly just jealousy anyway), spending a working life in any aspect of the law is very much its own reward, a source of personal pride and accomplishment, and inevitably respected by friends, families, and loved ones. Young people tend to worry about “making money.“ The older one gets, the more one worries about a life well-lived…..
Posted by Jim - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 10 hours, 46 minutes ago

Interested: In addition to the $15K per year for a state law school, don’t forget living expense, which willl be at least another $10K per year (assuming that you are willing to live at the poverty level for 3 years)
Posted by interested - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 10 hours, 43 minutes ago

Charlie - As an earlier ABA article correctly noted, there isn’t a big difference between a 55th ranked school and a 105th ranked school, because unless you end up in the top 15 - 20% of your class, you usually aren’t going to get the high paying job straight out of school. Unless it is a top ranked law school (e.g. Texas, Michigan, UVA, etc.), why would you pay extra to go out of state if you aren’t going to get an added benefit? Regardless, if you do go out of state because you want to live in that new locale, many schools will waive out-of-state after the first year if you show a genuine intent to stay in that state (e.g. get a driver’s license, work only in that state over the summer, etc.). If you pay more than your own state law school’s tuition to go somewhere else, you’ve made your bed and should know the risks as an adult. Also, if you are unmarried, why could you not work 10-15 hours to help support your bills during the year, and what would you be doing over the summer?
Posted by Aaron - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 10 hours, 40 minutes ago

I think the real problem isn’t the disparity in salaries, but the huge disparities in the cost of legal education, and the impossibility of really evaluating the value of the additional cost. I had the opportunity for a free ride at a low-ranked school, and ended up paying about 70k in tuition alone for a higher ranked one, based on the “average salaries” coming out of the two schools. But did I really buy more opportunity? I graduated in the top 25 percent from my school, but maybe I would have been in the top 5 percent at the school offering me a free ride. I can’t tell how much of the opportunities I had coming out of law school were as a result of my own performance, and how much was a result of my law school’s name. Was it worth the 70k in extra loans? I will never really know.
Posted by Yeoman - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 10 hours, 32 minutes ago

It is nice to see an article that’s realistic about salaries.

This story is far more complicated that it might seem, as not only is there a large disparity between the few who make a huge staring salary and the many who do not, but there’s an enormous variation by region. In my rural region of the country a civil litigator (which is what I am, on the defense side) is guaranteed to try cases, which isn’t the norm in larger urban areas, but very few will crack $100,000/year after years and years of work. A lawyer doing really well here is making $100,000 to $175,000 after 20 years of work.

Is that a reason to complain? Some here have pointed out there’s a lot of folks worse off. But, by the same token, most of us practicing in these regions took up law because we were able to stay here, not because we loved it. Law schools make no effort at all to explain what the practice of law is really like, and it’s darned near impossible to get out after a few years, when the reality of it really sinks in. Yes, we’re doing better than the guy at the feed store, and we’re working longer hours too, in a profession that’s not all that pleasant to be in. And don’t suggest “well you can get out”, as once you are a lawyer, you really can’t.
Posted by Charlie - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 10 hours, 32 minutes ago

Interested: I worked part time during law school, I worked full time during the summers, I graduated with approximately $90,000 in student loans. Did you go to law school? If so, what was your student loan tally at the end?
Posted by interested - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 10 hours, 30 minutes ago

Jim - If you have $15k in tuition, $25k in living expenses, and contribute only $10k by working during the school year and summer, you would have a grand total of $90k in loans over three years. $90k can be managed, even if you only make $45-50k per year.
Posted by George Lenard - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 10 hours, 30 minutes ago

Re # 22: In-state (resident) public tuition is by far the best deal, barring substantial scholarship aid. If you can’t get into your state law school, maybe you should rethink your plans, because your grades and test scores likely indicate you will have a tough time succeeding in school (which means certainly top half, if not higher).

As to borrowing living expenses, here’s a plan. Do that, but live on a near-poverty budget ($10,000-$15,000) (yes, I did this, living in a roach-infested rooming house). Then, when you graduate, $60,000 (or less) will feel like you’re rich, even with loan payments.

Finally, people seem to forget that (1) we’re talking here about STARTING pay in a profession with a huge upside; and (2) we’re talking about practicing law like it’s a JOB. What I wasn’t taught, and apparently still isn’t taught enough, is that with that mentality you will always be a wage slave for the entreprenurial lawyers who make sure they take home high six figures or seven figures. They do this not so much by being good lawyers (though most are), but by being supreme salesmen, networkers, business managers, and client communicators.

Let’s do some math. Lets say you don’t have a JOB as a lawyer, but own your own business as a lawyer—your own solo practice—and it costs $4,000 a month ($48,000 a year) in overhead. You bill 50 35 hour weeks @ a modest $200 per hour. So you’re making $ 302,000 a year ($350,000 gross less $48,000 overhead), with two weeks off, only billing 1750 hours (well below big-firm standards). Now THAT’s making money the old-fashioned way. Of course, those numbers may vary, and it takes a while to get there, but that’s the upside. Instant gratification—NOT! It gets better yet when you start hiring (and making a big margin on) law school grads who don’t get the true meaning of law-as-a-business yet and are desperate for a JOB.
Posted by Law Student in Madison - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 10 hours, 30 minutes ago

I attend a state school but pay out-of-state tuition. It sucks! However, I make ends meet without having to borrow every dollar I need to pay expenses.

Charlie,

You are correct that many people don’t have families to depend on for financial support, but you are most certainly incorrect that working is not an option. I worked throughout my first year because I wanted to make sure that I did not graduate with more than $75K in debt. It’s all a matter of how much you are willing to do.

As for everyone complaining about their salaries, find another job. If you like your job, then stop complaining about how little you make. You knew, or should have known, what you were getting into when you started working there.
Posted by Tricia - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 10 hours, 24 minutes ago

No one said law school was a ticket to great wealth. We do this because we want to practice this profession—right…? In any endeavor, it takes more than a financial investment to be successful. It requires you to gain some valuable experience and distinguish yourself. Once you’e done that, decide what you want and make it happen. Don’t be a victim of the “system.“ And pay no attention to statistics. You create your own experience depending on your attitude. Stop buying into the b-s.
Posted by NCLawyer - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 10 hours, 23 minutes ago

In addition to the student loans and inflated promises from law school placement offices when they try lure you to their schools, there are folks like TomtheWaiter who let no opportunity go by to shit on the profession. And without the least understanding of what it is we do! I’m sorry Tom, but no one’s livelihood, freedom or family security depends on your service of a cup of coffee. I am a firm believer that there is honor in all honest work (and yes, Tom, the practice of law is honest work, just like being a waiter). I am also grateful to be making $65K (after 6 years of practice) in a town where I can afford to live well on $65K. However, I have law school classmates who made ~$85K their first year in New York City who had student loan payments of $600+ a month and rent payments of $1200+ (even with a roommate!). How much do you think was left to live on after that, in one of the most expensive cities in the country? Even so, it’s not the reality of our salaries that is the source of the complaints of the lawyers I know—it’s dealing with the perception of assholes that assume we make a million dollars, who ask stupid questions like, “why don’t you just buy a new car” when your car breaks down, who say things like “you can pick up the check, you’re making bank” when you’re out with a group of friends and acquaintances, and who bitch about the bills we send for unf*cking the problems they bring to us as clients. And to the guy who said in-state schools are such a great deal, what happens when your in-state school (VA) is so highly ranked that it is damn near impossible to get in? Which do you think is a better gamble at that point, a decently ranked private school or the more affordable program at a poorly ranked school? I’m happy with my choice, but tired of stories about first year lawyers who make $160K—it gives people like TomtheWaiter yet another wrong impression of the legal profession as a whole. And I’m tired of the judgmental BS from nonlawyers who make more than I do—especially since there are so many of them.
Posted by Interested - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 10 hours, 21 minutes ago

Charlie - I am married, with children, have no familiy funds flowing in, and my wife only made $10k per year while I was in school. My total was ~$100k. I know what it is like to start at $45k in a big city, and while not fun, you can do it. While starting low isn’t fun considering the effort and time you put in, the benefit is the possibility of lateral moves and other open doors that you get with a JD, as opposed to the majority of Americans who don’t significantly deviate from where they start, even if they also start out at $45k.
Posted by NCLawyer - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 10 hours, 16 minutes ago

Oh, and RangerAJ? Mr. BigTime patent lawyer? Get a life. I work construction law and never met an engineer-turned-lawyer who could think his way out of a paper bag when it came to litigation. Someone’s got to do the divorces, real estate, criminal defense, insurance defense, worker’s comp. There’s no need for you to be so smug. As for me, back to work.
Posted by Law Student in Madison - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 10 hours, 9 minutes ago

Tricia,

Well said. You must be a genius! (no sarcasm intended) I like the way you think.
Posted by Charlie - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 10 hours, 4 minutes ago

I sure hope my JD opens up opportunities for me. I agree with the people who said that lawyers need to be in charge of their own destiny, but it’s not practical to go solo right out of school. There needs to be a learning process first, otherwise you won’t know what you’re doing. Right now, I’d give anything for a really qualified mentor.
Posted by Hard Working Lawyer - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 9 hours, 46 minutes ago

Listen, not to be rude, but the vast majority of those who did well at good law schools have a very good chance of getting one of the high profile, well paying jobs you hear about. Those who went to lesser law schools or who did poorly don’t get that chance. I am glad that there are now reports that help to make that clearer to people, even if the report has its flaws. Those of you who are making $40k-$70k, well, that sucks, but don’t resent those who are doing well.
Posted by Lyndon - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 9 hours, 34 minutes ago

I retired from the military to attend law school to do what I want. I’ve made the six figures and trust me, six figures comes at a cost to family and potentially your health. (Yes, I have a masters in business too.) In a few years, the starting salary will be in the past and you will be earning based on your production, not a three-hour law school exam you took while you had the flu.
Posted by Danny - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 9 hours, 24 minutes ago

Go blue!
Posted by RangerAJ - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 9 hours, 23 minutes ago

RE: # 39.

You are right.

I am not like Carolina lawyers who’s daddies re-grade the bar exam so you can pass, even though you failed. Was that NC or SC? If SC, then as you are from NC, please disregard, and as we quit here at noon on Fridays, allow me to buy the first round.

And thank you-your comment about appearing smug is appreciated, and I do relate to those many whose law school loans (mine was $120,000) never see the light at the end of the tunnel.

For those interested, patent law is a financially rewarding career field and maybe that is all I should have stated.

Shalom.
Posted by Bill - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 9 hours, 2 minutes ago

Re. #30: I have the opposite story. I was accepted to a first-tier school, and offered a free ride at a third tier. After researching the schools, the profession, and speaking with numerous attorneys, I decided it was best to save money and go with the free school. I, too, thought that I would likely be ranked higher at a school with lower admission standards, and my LSAT was excellent, which should have indicated the same. It didn’t happen, even amongst many classmates who had difficulties breathing and closing their mouths at the same time. The extent to which law school exams measure one’s knowledge of the law is a conversation for elsewhere, but however arbitrary they may or may not be, it is the same no matter where you go to school (something several lawyers told me, which I didn’t want to listen to). Regardless, it may not have made a difference anyway, because while the top 10% students at Third-Tier U. always got the on-campus interviews, none of them got offers. I am still looking for work nine months after graduation, and probably a third of my class is as well. Also, my school (and this is not uncommon, though perhaps also not necessarily typical) sets the standards for keeping a scholarship so high that over half of the recipients lost them after 2-3 semesters. Given the choice to do it all over, I would not hesitate for ONE SECOND to spend the additional $70k for a first-tier instead of a free third-tier.
Posted by Charlie - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 8 hours, 56 minutes ago

Wow, glad I went with the first tier, Bill. I was in a position exactly like yours, and I agonized over the choice. I really liked my law school, and I’m not sorry I went. But life’s sure a b*tch once you graduate.
Posted by Dwight Stuff - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 8 hours, 54 minutes ago

RE: #45.
I’ve worked with Engineers all of my life, and I promise you that they are not necessarily the best problem solvers. In fact they seem to be pretty limited. What scares me are the not-very-good Engineers that pretend to be what they are not who go into another field (Law?) because they see a limit to their success as Engineers. It’s probably important to note as well that arrogant people tend to be useless in an environment where they can’t feel smarter than everybody else. Good luck.
Posted by Fan of Dave at 3 - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 8 hours, 50 minutes ago

Dave, you are right. Mike Hunt et al seem to be on different planets. Thank you for striking a cord about holding hands over silly things. If I had a nickel for every time a client or other party in a case I was working on made ten times my salary, I’d be as rich as them now.
Posted by Former Archi - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 8 hours, 46 minutes ago

Law is a second career for me. I used to be an architect. The average debt for a M.Arch. (also a 3 year professional degree) is about $80,000 from one of the top schools. The average starting salary for an architect in a major city is about $37,000. Most recent law school graduates I know have about $100,000 in debt and make about $80,000. And yet I hear more complaints from new lawyers than new architects. Perhaps it’s because architects know they will be working 60-80 hour weeks for very little pay and have no expectations to the contrary. Some law students seem to think they are entitled to high paying jobs that will instantly vault them into the upper-middle class. Many people work very hard and no one is entitled to anything. At least with a law degree there is the possibility of being able to afford property before I am 50, provide for my family, and be able to help my parents in their old age. It won’t happen upon graduation, but it will happen. As an architect, I could never image being able to afford any of those things because unless you are a starchitect like Gehry, salaries top out at $100,000.
Posted by steve - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 8 hours, 35 minutes ago

Thank you!!! I am a 3L at a top 100 law school. The most annoying statement/assumption that I get from people is “you are in law school, you are going to be rich!!“ I am concerned with merely finding a job with a salary that can pay my student loans, along with the rest of my monthly expenses!! The sad reality is that it will take 100 more articles like this one in regular newspapers to correct the layman’s misconception about lawyers’ salaries. Even then, it may never be corrected.
Posted by NCLawyer - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 8 hours, 33 minutes ago

RangerAJ—that was SC. But I’ll take that first round in cyberspace, no hard feelings.

Former Archi—I represent architects, and your point about expectations is exactly right. Oh the lies perpetrated by lawschool profs and placement reps who never practiced ... but it beats being a legal secretary, which is how I started.
Posted by law is 4 losers - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 8 hours, 25 minutes ago

A JD from a “toilet” school closes more door than it opens. Just take a look at craigslist nyc - just this week there were 2 postings for admitted lawyers paying 30 K and 40 K, respectively. Small firms know it’s a brutal bear market for the graduates of the NYC dumpster-level schools like Brooklyn, ‘Dozo, Seton Hall, St Johns, NYLS, etc. Even 3-4 years out, you’re lucky to be making 50-55 K (if you can find a job period).
There is nothing worthwhile or interesting in law. It is mostly pushing bales of makework cut & pasted paper across a table and dealing with nasty judges, dreadful partners, and other socially dysfunctional folks.
And for contrast, NYC Garbage Men make a salary of 62 K after only 3 years- many lawyers aren’t getting close to 62 K even ten years out of law school! Of course, slinging trash bags is a more worthwhile and noble calling than cranking out reams of toilet paper as a lawyer.
Going to law school was the biggest personal and financial mistake of my life. I tell everyone I meet how awful the salaries are and how miserable practice is. At 38 K for bottom feeding diploma mills lke Seton Hall, why not just apply to NYC Sanitation and sling trash bags?
Posted by PT work works - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 8 hours, 11 minutes ago

I’m a 2L, married to a full time student, with no BigLaw job waiting for me when I finish (yet…). My husband and I live in Chicago, support ourselves entirely, and are very careful with our money. Between both our part time jobs and extremely frugal living I will be graduating with less than 40K in loans. It has been far from easy, but it’s a small sacrifice to pay knowing that I will be less governed by debt upon graduation.
One consideration for incoming 1Ls:
I had a LOT of friends who would go out and drink and spend between $50 - $100 on partying each week (it adds up fast!). I decided that rather than waste that time and money drinking, I could waitress for those same hours that everyone else was out partying, and actually make money. I kept my hours limited, worked weekends (the good nights) and made money while not really being at a disadvantage in terms of amount of hours I could put into studying. Of course, now I have had to pick up a clerking position for the sake of my resume and experience, but waitressing definitely helped keep the debts low and gave me time to socialize with non law people in my first year (which was quite therapeutic). It’s probably not for everyone, but it worked for me.
Posted by R - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 7 hours, 38 minutes ago

Yeah, but how much do DENTISTS make in South Dakota? (If it’s $38,000 a year, that’s about $19,000 a tooth.)
Posted by George Lundin - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 7 hours, 28 minutes ago

I am on the twilight side of the law after having graduated from one of your top 4 schools on a scholarship and no debt. I never made the “big bucks” that some indicate, BUT the law has been a wonder life. Stay with it. GSL @ Seattle
Posted by jonathan Edwards - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 7 hours, 28 minutes ago

so, I am at a bottom tier school, which I chose for its location, okay? My out of state tuition is the same ($16K) as instate would have been at my previous home. I am staying local, that was the original intention. no, after the first year, can’t get residency, the BOR and former Gov of the state closed that off several years ago, so no tuition break. Will have $100K in loans when I graduate, that is an accepted risk. Am flying solo, building my own firm from the ground up. I have previously run my own business, I can do a law firm. Not everybody can go solo. Yes, I have made friends with local attorneys and law profs, you can bet I will call and ask questions. Married, grown kids and one still at home. homeschool, so wife doesn’t work, so no income there. Yes, we live poor, deliberately, but did buy the house at the beginning, so now have equity which will be used to start the firm. Time to cut the crap and get to work.
Posted by Jimmy J - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 7 hours, 19 minutes ago

The fact is that becoming a Lawyer is a BAD career choice for the majority of bright individuals. Pharma Reps routinely earn more that $100k, as do mid or high-level sales persons for companies. Also, many IT jobs pay well above $70k. The fact is that most students seeking to go to law school are either ignorant or were sold a bill of goods regarding “salary reality” following graduation. And by the way, probably without exception—those working the higher paying jobs I mention DO NOT work nearly as hard as BIGLAW associates, PD’s or even your average busy litigation associate. Let’s face it—Lawyers are just bad with numbers…
Posted by Frederica Poorville - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 7 hours, 8 minutes ago

I used to be extremely smart, but after being in the “family business” for a while, I went to law school.

I read most of the cases assigned (and then some), and then got up at 2:00 a.m. to truly study (cram?) the morning of every exam except for Ethics…I actually _personally_ outlined that course, for whatever reason.

Depending on what “Ranking System” you look at, I finished after 2 years at a decent school…and started as a desk jockette at a very small Southern firm while awaiting my Bar Results. No problem, my first time out, although my Graduating Class was not quite as lucky.

After seeing the previously-Solo that I was working for (same School, but from 25 years ago) make over 100k and do nothing but come in late, call insurance adjusters, lie about the state of the law or legislation, take two hour lunches, and leave early, I got tired of educating both XXX and his paralegal (I didn’t have one until after two years) for $40k/year.

I love the law, I just hate the legacy that the “Old School” has left for us. It is up to us to rebuild. Quit griping about money…change the focus and the JOB itself.
Posted by Workshard - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 6 hours, 46 minutes ago

Tomthewaiter:
I went to law school, racked up the typical $125k in debt, took a low-paying government job, and in my spare time get to carry drinks and food (which includes tea and coffe) to cover my student loans.
How’s that for work?
Oh, and I generally worked 20+ hours during the school year in law school, in addition to slaving away as a law clerk during the summers.
I still don’t bemoan going to law school and becoming a lawyer, but at the restaurant where I work, people are shocked (appalled?) to find out that I am a staff attorney at the court, and yet still working a second job.
Maybe because I am single? Just starting out? Who cares? I’m paying my debt, working hard for the state, and getting some social time (and spending money) at the restaurant. I’m a happy (albeit tired) camper.
Posted by Ronnie - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 5 hours, 40 minutes ago

Am I on a different planet simply because I CHOOSE not to bemoan my obligations and lay all the blame at the foot of my top-14 school for not being one of the chosen few making $160+? I’m a grown woman. I work hard for a living. I enjoy what I do. Could I make more working in a different industry? I’m sure I could but I chose to go to law school and become an attorney. Whining about it (and I’m sorry, I really do feel that at some point it goes beyond complaining to just whining) doesn’t change the fact that I owe the loans back. And since my loan total exceeds every total I’ve seen here, I don’t have a lot of sympathy. We are all adults here. Let’s move on with life and act like it.
Posted by Bill - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 5 hours, 17 minutes ago

Ronnie: I’m glad you work hard for a living. I don’t, because I haven’t been able to get a job. I used to work hard and enjoy what I did. But then I went to law school and am now seemingly unemployable. I can’t work in a different industry because non-lawyers won’t hire a law grad since, by golly, they just know we won’t stay when we could knock on the door of any firm in town and easily make $160k. I’m not going to lay all the blame at the foot of my school for not being one of the chosen few making $35k, but yes, I am going to lay some of it there. I’m sorry you chose to take out so many loans, but I don’t have a lot of sympathy.
Posted by Ronnie - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 4 hours, 24 minutes ago

Bill, I’m not sorry I took out a lot of loans. They’re paid every month and I move on with my life. I also didn’t have a job for the first 18 months after I was out, so I temped and found a completely non-related legal job to make ends meet. As a matter of fact, I still have that job, two years later. I’m not asking for sympathy because I don’t have much of my own for others. Besides, when I couldn’t get a legal job, I just took it off my resume. Yeah, I know I shouldn’t have to, but you do what you have to do, and if that means working two or three jobs—and I’ve done that too—then so be it. My point is not for sympathy, my point is that adults do what they have to do. Period. And we live with the consequences of our actions. Blaming someone else doesn’t make your problem go away, and it doesn’t pay the bills. All I do is work two jobs and pay my bills, including my loan.
Posted by ParalegalEagle - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 3 hours, 53 minutes ago

Let’s see - I make over $60K. Work 37 hour weeks/salaried. Huge windowed office. Benefits galore. No “real” responsibilities (i.e. I don’t ultimately sign MY name to the document being filed). Undergrad debt from state school - $10K. No $200K law school debt here. I get wonderfully long vacations and leave my work AT work when I go home for the day.

And people still ask me WHY ON EARTH I refuse to go to law school to be a “lawyer.“ Hmmm…...

I have great respect for all who did choose to take on the burden AND not get the credit you so rightly deserve.
Posted by TomtheWaiter - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 3 hours, 45 minutes ago

Man. I love my career. Tips galore and all the steak I can eat!!!
Posted by ParalegalEagle - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 3 hours, 23 minutes ago

I love the fact that I can sleep at night. God bless the lawyers.
Posted by bigpoodle - 10 months, 3 weeks, 1 day, 3 hours, 9 minutes ago

As a good friend of mine once said, “the importanc of my practice and the size of my income increase exponentially the distance I am from home.“ perhaps law school reporting of earnings of graduates do the same thing.
Posted by MS - 10 months, 3 weeks, 23 hours, 33 minutes ago

I’ll be graduating in May & I’m looking at the prospect of $90,000 in debt from a 4-tier law school. I still don’t have a job lined up after graduation so I’m pretty stressed out about repaying the mountain of debt. For those of us who won’t be making the huge salaries or don’t have $ from the parents, it’s going to be a long time before we see any financial benefits of practicing law. I realize that this is an investment in my education & career & I’m not in this for the money, but I’d be naive if I wasn’t worried about my financial condition. The more law schools see their institutions as a business, the more students should do a cost-benefit analysis with their “educations.“
Posted by The Ogre - 10 months, 3 weeks, 11 hours, 27 minutes ago

Seems to me though that articles like this are simply doing the same thing as the “you’ll make gobs of money” articles, simply on the other end of the pendulum’s swing.
I’m a 1L, and I intend to go into the prosecutor’s office anyway, so money is not my motivation and never has been. My experience with this is different from many of my classmates. I have four friends who have graduated from the school I’m at now, 1 does probate on her own shingle and loves it. But she isn’t making the big bucks. One works at a small firm and pretty much defends traffic tickets…she also doesn’t make the big buck and hates her life. One just passed the bar and has no prospects, and one has taken the bar three times and has yet to pass. So where is that big money people keep talking about? Not here, that’s for sure. But that’s not going to stop me from getting my JD because, as I heard in some movie once….There ain’t nothing like driving a stake through a bad guys heart.
Posted by Truth - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 49 minutes ago

First: there is no guarantee of financial success (with or without personal happiness) in any career.

Second: if you believed that a 6 figure job would be handed to you on presentation of your JD without further question, and you didn’t bust your bottom to get that 6 figure job, you deserve what you got.

Third: Don’t go to a 3d tier law school unless you know in advance what type of job you will have when you come out.

Fourth: Don’t go to a 4th tier law school. They shouldn’t exist. If you couldn’t get into a 1st or 2nd tier law school you shouldn’t be practicing law. (Same thing goes for people who fail the bar 3 times.) There are plenty of graduates of 1st and 2nd tier schools who can adequately fill the low-paying public interest jobs, and/or low paying private sector jobs. All you graduates of 3rd and 4th tier law schools are the reason attorneys at smaller firms can’t raise their billing rates and salaries to properly compensate their associates and/or partners.
Posted by Tastykake - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 57 minutes ago

Truth- I am the exception to that rule. I got accepted into 0 1st Tier and only one 2nd Tier. However, a 3rd tier gave me a full-ride, for some reason, and I went to that school. I graduated in May with 10k in debt (my girlfriend held a decent job throughout my time in law school and helped me through) and I accepted the offer I received from my 2L Summer Associate position and am happily making 135k, plus all sorts of other swag, while only putting in about 55 hours a week. I can also work at home. It’s a fun and very gratifying job regardless of the money you make. However, I can’t help but brag that I’m 24, and I’m set for life. Put it on cruise control for 8 years, then expect to be a Partner.
Posted by Natalie - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 6 hours, 39 minutes ago

As a nurse who is a 1L I would seriously encourage anyone who thinks nursing is good money to turn off the TV and go talk to someone who does it for a living. The $70k is nice to start, but doesn’t really ever increase…ever…annual raises are generally less than inflation and seniority increases are pennies to dollars an hour. I won’t get in to the working conditions.
Posted by Aspiring Law Student - 10 months, 2 weeks, 5 days, 1 hour, 18 minutes ago

Wow, I’m a 20 year old student finishing my 2nd year in college, and have always aspired to be a Lawyer or deal with some sort of law, I havn’t networked or looked into any internships (yet) but that is all in the making, but after reading 72 posts, with a majority bashing the profession itself, while the rest have faced the facts of the profession, I guess I find myself in desperate need of advice before continuing on this journey, please anyone with insight on which route of law to take or any other options, I would greatly appreciate a reply post.

Thanks
Posted by interested - 10 months, 2 weeks, 4 days, 11 hours, 33 minutes ago

Aspiring Law Student - Sorry in advance for the long post. As you have probably distilled from the previous posts, if you want to go into law, the best thing you can do is get into the highest top tier law school that you can afford. If an in-state law school fits the bill, then take it to cut down on costs. For the most part, unless you are in a top 15 - 25 ranked school, go into school knowing that you will probably have to be in the top 15-20% of your class in order to get a well paying job. Make sure you go to school in the area you want to practice, because it is hard to break into another locale given the supply of law students in that other locale. As far as what route of law to take, if you are just finishing your 2nd year of undergrad, you should seriously consider (if you aren’t already) majoring in either engineering or one of the hard sciences (chem, biology, physics, etc.). I would double major in some sort of business degree as a back-up option. The reason for that advice, is that if you have a degree in biology for example, you will be one of the law students eligible to sit for the patent law bar. The demand for these types of students is large, and the supply is relatively small. As a result, you don’t have to do as well in law school to get a job opportunity in patent law, and you would make more money starting out of school. Example, I have classmates that are not in the top 25% of my school (not a top ranked school) that didn’t have a problem locking down clerkships in large cities at big law firms. The reason, because they are all eligible to sit for the patent bar. The good news is that you can do patent litigation if you aren’t interested in just patent review stuff, and once you get your foot in the door, and do a good job, you might be able to transition to another area of law if you find that patent stuff isn’t your bag. FInally, buckle down and make the best grades you can in undergrad, and take studying for the LSAT seriously, because those scores are extremely important, and do something to spruce up your resume for admission officials to love (e.g., studying abroad, etc.)
Posted by Aspiring Law Student - 10 months, 2 weeks, 3 days, 19 hours, 58 minutes ago

Thanks alot for the information, but the problem is; i’m not strong in the science field i have done well in my writing classes and pols class but science is deff not my strong point at all; as far as being top of my class? that is a good question, i’m not the first to hit the books but i can say my street smarts and people skills are top of my class, i have somewhat high connections within Michigan and plan on workin on an internship at the state capital; I guess i’m putting attorney out of the spotlight and am focusing now more on lobbying or possibly tort law? I greatly appreciate the advice, living in MI; my best bet would be msu since u of m comes with a big $ ticket and is highly selective but who knows? I’m aware of the LSAT not so sure what it contains but thats something I will have to research also, is there anyway if you dont mind i could possibly ask you some further questions? thanks alot once again
Posted by interested - 10 months, 2 weeks, 3 days, 11 hours, 43 minutes ago

Fire off any questions you have. I’ll answer to the best of my knowledge/experience.
Posted by Anon - 10 months, 2 weeks, 3 days, 10 hours, 45 minutes ago

Guys - take a CFA level 1,2,3 - and hightail over to finance to save some money before retiring back to a meaningfull and low paying career in law?
Posted by aspiring law student - 10 months, 2 weeks, 2 days, 9 hours, 45 minutes ago

Thanks in advance, as a 2nd year undergrad, what would your recommendations be in order to compensate for not as high of a gpa, do internships and big names on recommendation letters really carry big weight? when do you recommend I start studying for the LSAT? and are there any classes you took in college that might have helped you or any outside courses that are offered to better prepare you for the LSAT? also haha sorry for all the questions what do you know about international law as a career option? thanks alot I really appreciate it.
Posted by disgruntled - 10 months, 2 weeks, 2 days, 9 hours, 40 minutes ago

I graduated at a first tier school awhile back. Yes, the salaries were a lie. I started at 36K in my small town, and don’t make that much more now. It depends on where you practice, and you are correct, if you are not making the big bucks, you probably don’t fill out the law school grad surveys.
Posted by interested - 10 months, 2 weeks, 2 days, 8 hours, 15 minutes ago

Obviously having some sort of meaningful internship (not a runner because everyone does that) and having some big name recommendations help once you get to the stage where they review your application, but the truth is that most schools have a formula assessing GPA and LSAT to determine if you even get to the review stage. High LSAT can offset a lower GPA, but if the descrepancy is too great, a school will assume that you are smart but don’t put in the effort. Advice - you have two years left in undergrad, so if you are serious about law school I’d kick it up for the last two years and make as near perfect grades asyou can. I’d even take summer school classes if that is an option because the classes are easier and have higher grades (doesn’t matter if you don’t need them, get a minor or double major if you want). If you pull up your GPA over the next 1.5 years (applications are due early in early Spring) and show a trend that the first years were a fluke, then that is the best you can do. Also, most applications have a space for you to explain why your grades were not so good at some point (ie, family problems, illness, other hardship, etc.) As far as LSAT, you can buy old exams for practice, and if you have the money, there are KAPLAN courses that you can take to help with test taking tips. The key is becoming familiar with the test and take many tests in a real-time format before you take it for real. That way you can assess how well you will probably do on the real thing. There aren’t any college classes that will gear you towards the LSAT of which I’m aware. International Law - I don’t know much about it, except that some schools have better programs than others, and unless you are going to practice in a bigger city (NY, DC, San Fran, etc.) that has firms with those type of practices, international law may not be an option. However, once in school, there are many opportunities to spend a summer abroad and take international law courses if you are interested. Any other questions?

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